Category: accessible Devices
I'm thinking about buying a new laptop. I was looking at Macs, but they are expensive. I really don't know. I do know that Macs come with their own screen reader built in. How good does this work? Any pros or cons for both sides would be very much appreeciated. Thanks.
voiceover takes some getting used to. however, I think the mac laptops are much better built than most pc laptops. for example, the mac book i just bought last month has a magnetic lock and a magnetic power supply. which is good because those are two less components that can wear out. The mac book I got was $1249 and that has a 2.4gHz dual core II processor, 2 gigs of ram, 120 gig hd, DVD burner, USB 2, firewire, wireless, ethernet, and universal power supply plus the OS and lots of other included software including voiceover. the good thing is that you can also install windows and run it natively. So you can have both worlds in one machine. The macbook is sturdy, very light, and very thin. Definetly check one out before you buy a pc. They also have a model that sels for approx $1049 but the specs aren't quite as good.
Hi
There's a lot of good things to be said about Macs surely, but my wife has had a rather bad experience with hers, there are problems with the batteries, with the magnetic plug etc, the latpop doesn't charge properly. We've seen on Google that this is a common problem and many people are frustrated by it. I can't, personally, buy that Macs are much better machines, everyone goes by their own experience, of course, and between my laptop (Compaq with a dual core AMD processor that cost $720) and my wife's (MacBook that cost $1300) my laptop seems to have performed at least as well and, today, has fewer problems, we've owned our computers for approximately the same time, i.e. just under 2 years.
Another thing to consider is what you'll be using the computer for and if you need to install specific software on the computer for school and/or work (for development, for example, I need to use Visual Studio and Eclipse, pretty sure you can't get those for Macs, my favorite media player, anti virus software etc is not availible for Macs, they have their own versions). The dual boot system is cool, but then you have to obtain (buy or otherwise) Windows, install it yourself and do all those things, I don't think any Mac comes preloaded with Windows (Mac folks correct me if I'm wrong) so that's something you have to do yourself before you can use Windows on your Mac.
We're lookinga the Sony Vaio computers, Dell and Compaq are also in the picture as a replacement for our laptops, they are quite a bit cheaper than a Mac (if you have access to a screen reader), despite Apple's admiareable efforts to install a screen reader it has, of course, some way to go still to rival your screen reader of choice for Windows (unless you use Narrator of course), there is also a lot less choice, naturally, when it comes to Mac software, media players etc. I, personally, can't stand ITunes, I don't understand why you have to go through some complex interface to play and burn your songs and copy them to a personal media player, copy and paste has always worked just fine for me, but may be it's my PC based thinking at fault.
There's loads of people who will tell you to spend the extra $400 on a Mac, they may be right, but I don't see why you should, I certainly wouldn't spring for one myself.
This is just one side of the story, I'm sure you'll get the Mac side too, which is good. One should always have the most information before making a choice.
cheers
-B
Woof leeps off of his rug to greet brew with a harty wag,wag,wag.. Some very excellent points and really the most important thing of anything you will read here is: does it do what you need? WE can debate all of the fine points but if the machine doesn't work for you it's pretty useless. I use both and each has a place in my daily tasks. ON the mac I surf the net, check my mail, use skype, enjoy itunes, watch dvd's, write small documents use messaging record and edit audio on a small scale and probably other things that I forgot. ON the PC i use office applications, record and edit audio on a much larger scale, sync my mobile devices calendar and contacts (this can be done on the mac I sipmly choose not to), and again probably other things I forgot. I have great hope that office apps will be accessible in january of 09 at least that is what I would like to see happen. Apple is very aware of accessibillity and is working tward accessibilllity of there applications. Many developers are starting to achnologe voiceover the built in screen reader as a componant that needs to be included in there testing and developement processs. So, go to the apple store and try a mac. I suggest going to www.icanworkthisthing.com to find some excellent documentation on how to use voiceover with applications on the mac. Extending a paw to Brew Woof returns to his rug and continues chewing on his bone.
I'm with Woof and Brew on this one, although I'm biased towards the Mac. I've never had problems with any of what B spoke of in his post regarding charging, or batteries. My battery, while running OS-10 will run for 4 hours easy with wireless and bluetooth both turned on. In Windows, it's a different storsy though, as it doesn't take advantage of the EFI stuff natively. Vista SP1 may fix this problem.
Like Cam said though, you can run both operating systems natively, and it just works.
In the PC world, I think HP/Compaq, and Gateway make te best laptops. Just opinion, but it's what I've had success with.
interesting. Well, you can indeed run windows on macs using bootcamp, which will take some space, and then installing windows and the drivers, which will take even more space. That totally is about 8 gb you cannot even touch and that makes quite a rather large percent of space you could be using for storing. I favor the pc's on most aspects: Most of the software is much accessible, there is at least a workaround for many issues concerning accessibility on the pc, my laptop can stand 6 hours with bluetooth and wireless (although you've got to know what to tweak). on the other hand, "macs are so much secure because no one cares to hack into them", but this is only generalizaion and I am sure it has been proven at least once that macs can be hacked. You won't find viruses for most of them though and there are some programs that are available for mac that are not for pc and vice versa. However, macs tend for some reason to create files to identify storage media devices. This irritates me severely because you also have to feed the information to the mac (when ejecting a floppy, flash drive, ETC). Additionally, you really could use winamp for synchronizing your Ipod on windows, but thats a bit sidetracking for this topic. Try and experiment and see what works for you.
aa *accepts pot graciously* well, well, I shall sit down with VoiceOver and try it, as I would like to be educated and stop talking out of my bum hole. Once Office Apps become VoiceOverized I may be won over. It's possible that, since we bought first generation of MacBooks with Intel processors, that the problems relate specifically to those machines, but it's been a bit frustrating. One almost always has issues switching processor manufacturers, even if one's name is Apple.
My laptop battery life is nothing to be proud of, 2 to 3 hours and AMD has overheated once or twice, but only with extremely heavy work load and after laptop has run for hours, apparently it was an issue Compaq fixed, mine was also in an early production run of the v3019US line.
Best of luck, consider the points, try some laptops and then decide, loads of good laptop deals for PCs on buy.com, sometimes on Circuit City, and Blind Bargains throws up a great deal from time to time.
Best thing about Dell is that you can still buy them with XP set up.
cheers
-B
B,
Voiceover in Tiger isn't all that hot. If you're gonna do voiceover, do it in Leopard. It's at least on par with System Access.
My machine is a month old and I'm running lepard. Forgot to mention that. also, the hd is 160gb, and not 120... As far as a killer pc laptop, if I had the money, I'd go for an alien ware, music xp, or farari. I've found the build quality and size weight ratio of my new mac book much much better than the gateway and del laptops I've owned in the past. the sony laptops are nice but they're overpriced. if you're on a budget, I'd suggest checking out an Acer laptop.
Well, I see that there's a lot to think about. I still haven't made the decision. It will come with time. Thanks a lot guys.
I have not owned an apple computer so can't comment on that. However, keep in mind that if you buy a pc off the shelf its going to have vista on it. I run vista on my desktop and am happy with it. However, laptops tend to have smaller hard drives and my vista is about 10 gb without the sp1 update because my sound card does not support sp1 and after you get sp1 its going to be even bigger. If you get a laptop with vista it would be a good idea to get a high end dule core with 2 gb of ram since vista and jaws with software speech will be a pretty big load.
actually, places like tiger direct are still selling new and refurb machines, desktop and laptop, with xp.
Vista, that's an operating system Right? OH wait, it's an accident that's already happened...
lol willy i have a mac and i haven't had any problems with it yet even use skype and arcade machine emulators with it with out no problems.
I am like one of the other posters in here. I use mac (running leopard, with voice over alex), for using Adium and skype and to check my mail, and surf. My windows XP laptop, I use to do my schoolwork since its set up with the printer that is there. My mac is running virtual box with Ubuntu in it. I heard u can also get windows as a Virtual machine, but since I already have a windows laptop, they didn't put windows on here. My mom also has a mac for her school, and she said she actualy likes it more then windows. She is running either boot camp or parallels, to do her work, because one of the programs that she needs is not avilable with the mac. She is running tiger. I don't know how much virtual box and the machines take up as far as spacewise, so i can't tell u that. But, i say try it out, see which one u will like, and make your choice then. Voice over will take a bit to learn its commands, but once u have them down, your set.
Does voice over work meaning does it do all the things that Jaws does? Also, I was thinking about buying a mac, but also having XP instawled on it too. I have heard however, that that doesn't work so well. Any suggestions or comments?
Go to www.icanworkthisthing.com and find out the answers to many of your voiceover questions. Also, for those who are using voiceover go to openoffice.com and download the beta of there version 3. This is a program that is working on voiceover accessibillity for the mac. Office apps are the last berrier between the mac and the working world of blind and visually impaired individuals. They are hoping for a release in Setember and hopefully the voiceover accessibillity will be final. Feedback will be escential to the office project.
I got my Macbook in December and never looked back. the only thing I need to use my Windows machine for now is my Greek lessons, since there still isn't a Greek synthesizer out there for the Mac. That, and VoiceOver has a problem reading to the end of the document. If you stop and want to restart from where you left off, you can't do it as you can with Hal or JFW. Other tan that and a very slight learning curve, VO and the Mac is perfect. It took me about two weeks to lern the system. Also, Alex is truly the best voice I've ever heard on any synth in any language and the battery life is about five hours. I'll definitely check out that first site, since I don't know it, but also you should try
http://www.lioncourt.com
It has wonderful resources and info for VoiceOver users, plus the Mac Visionaries discussion list, which is incredible.
I goofed! www.openoffice.org.
If you prefer Jaws though, I heard that the Macs don't work with Jaws as well as windows does. That's what I heard.
Um, yes? Jaws is windows based not mack based.
I'll add on to the last post. Yes you can run Jaws on a Mac, but you need to have iether...
1. installed it using Virtual Box.
2. installed it using bootcamp.
Recommended OS, even now is XP Pro SP3, maybe Win 7 when it comes out
There are several mac topics that go into specifics when it comes to what applications are and aren't accessible on Leopard. This should also translate to Snow Leopard as well. Anyone who is running Snow Leopard can go into specifics if they feel it is necessary, when it comes to application and navigational differences between the 2 OS's, when using Voice Over.
I'm glad to see this topic has been mentioned because I'm facing the same question. I was wondering though, do macs have a scanning program like kirsweil that windows uses? I need a way to scan my books for school and wasn't sure if that was available or not with macs, and if so, what program would it be?
Ahh the great debate continues. Well acessibility has been made alot better with snow leopard, and in case you don't know the upgrade of snow leopard will install on a blank hard drive without any problems so well worth the $30 to upgrade even if you aren't running leopard. While macs have better build quality you can still get better "faster" specs PC for less money. But then again a 2GHZ dual core is more than fast enough for what the majority of us are gonna be doing so does speed really matter any more. I will say alot of people tell me that there best windows machine they ever used was a mac and hey if you are a student .. or if you not but know someone with a .edu email address you can use .. you can get windows 7 for $30 for a a download or another $13 if you want it on CD shipped to you. Though for me untill apple fixes it so garage band and logic work with voice over fully i probably wont consider a mac. But if you aren't a very tech savy person and don't want to have to deal with worrying about viruses and spyware and other nasties as much the mac is for you . and as i said for another $30 or so get windows 7 on there and use it for the few things you need windows for. Just the way i would do things myself, cuz that 13' mac book pro is as small and light as you will get to a netbook with a reall computer inside.
and, the new uni body casing on the white macbook, is great as well as the built-in 7 hour battery.
Nicole, there is a program called ReadIris which is a scanning and OCR program. I haven't used it, but everyone says it works well. You know, if you get a Mac, I'll help you in any way possible.
Thanks, for the input. Jesse, I heard the same for readiris, but I wasn't sure how it worked with scanning and such. I'm supposed to go look Saturday, and I'm sure if I buy it then, I'll need some help being I've never ever used a Mac before. :)
Thank you for the offer. I just want to have my info strait before I go into the store, so I know what to ask for.
Yeah, well my laptop is about to die I think, so when it does, I might get a mac. I'm not sure. It'll be a big change, so I'm a bit nervous!
im planning to get a laptop because the laptop i have now i borrowed it from the school for he past few months because the laptop that i originally had totally crashed on me because i kept restarting it due to the stinky demo version of JFW so, the laptop is loaned by the school.
If you're confused, the original laptop i have is not my own. The school gave me the laptop last year because i refreshed it since I am a fifth year senior thanks to the major of international relations which is a rigorous program.
if you refresh the laptop after four years, you return it after graduation, something like that.
+ the laptops they provide are IBM thinkpads which never work right and i always have problems.
in short, i never owned a laptop to even call it my own because my VR counselor said i didn't need a laptop since the school provided me with one. instead, i got back the braille lite melenium back after i graduated high school. since i used the braillelite melenium for homework and stuff. now i can't connect it to anything because they no longer make the serial port cables anymore except for when you have to connect a really old printer that is from 1990 to an old desktop of the same year.
it really sucks, but i managed anyway. i mostly use my laptop anyway for notes and stuff and rarely use the braillelight except for personal stuff.
i rather get a mac because i can't afford to spend 900$ on buying the jaws along with the feees from shiping and stuff unless i get the flashdrive version of system access for 400$ which is half the price of jaws. i like system acess better than jaws because of the voice quality especiallyy with the human voices
I'm thinking about getting either a mac mini or a macbook pro for my next computer. The reason why I am considering a mac mini is I've just won an icon from levelstar. This is a PDA for the blind that is supposed to be pretty good. We'll see.:) I'd like to try system access also.:) We will see.
my mac has become my secondary or travel computer now. like when this main quad core system had to be reformatted i switched to the mac completely, and didn't even notice hardly. and with the ability to run a vm, you won't have to lose windows completely, and you'll still have the great mac OS just one keystroke away while still having the windows OS loaded.
Oh when I switch, I will not be using windows at all. My plan is to get a mac mini and an Ipod touch 64 GB within the next 2 months. I'll keep my PC until I learn the mac well enough to make the switch.
you're completely sure that all the programs you use have mac versions? trust me, having a vm of windows handy can really be useful.
Yes, I mean, all I use my computer is basically internet surfing, and writing papers and eamil. That's pretty much it.:)
hi faithful angel I am no tech adviser but for what you want the mac would bee great, just keep in mind the Ipod touch does have its learning curve, I suggest that you take some timeto practice is hand jesters. With that said I have an Ipod touch 32 gig and love it. I want a Ipad64 later on.
OK, one final question. I was thinking about getting the Mac mini because there was no screen, but someone told me that if I didn't have some kind of monitor that VO would act weird or something like that. Is this true?
I've heard of people not having monitors and not having problems, but i'd advise you to consider how you'd want your computer. the mini is the desktop version where as the macBook is the laptop version. do you want your mac to be mobile or not.
There is a case for the mac mini that you can buy. I've seen it. So yes the mac Mini would be semi protable.:) It would work. Plus I have a PDA with and I'll also have my Ipod touch for internet and that kind of thing on the go.:)
i never knew there was a case for the mini so that's something new for me. mind you given a choice i would still go for my macBook, it's like so easy to take someware. just grab it off my desk and away i go. For being a laptop it gets amazing battery life too. even running it full out with no energy saving in place to condiction the battery mine still lasted over 6 hours.
What's the best program on a mac to access windows live and such?
Well, I took the plunge. I ordered my macbook pro this afternoon.:) I'm excited. Where can I go to start learning the VO commands?
there is a tutorial on the apple site, but i really suggest you look at the podcasts from blind cool tech. that's where i learned a lot i know. As for messengers on the mac, the program is called adium. supports msn, aim, FB chat, and i'm not sure what else.
Oh OK Thank you!
it's no problem at all, if you have any more questions you can always pm me or what ever, i'll see what i can do to help. i can also be on msn or skype depending if you need live help with something.
Oh I know I'll need help in the future. LOL, thanks for the offer. My MSN is sort of messed up right now though so... and I don't use skype much, but I guess I can start now.:)
well, any option is available for me most of the time so that shouldn't be much of an issue. i'm glad to help a fellow mac user so that's no problem
Like I say, I'm going to need all the help I can get at first. LOL
that's understandable.
There is a web site I always recommend for new Mac users:
Switch101.com
I have no idea why some people doing podcasts put forth the ridiculous idea that one should forget everything they learned about one thing before going into something new: That is the height of stupidity. Apple knows you won't do it, hence the above web site.
Now since I have yet to use VoiceOver personally, I would first start the Mac and second run the tutorial for VoiceOver I think it's Command Option Shift F8 - Add fn to that if your function keys are set to hardware on your Macbook which is their factory setting.
Once you know how to use Voiceover even a little bit, you can follow the instructions from the above site, blind or sighted. I've been on there with my PAC Mate and guided people through their Mac for setting up their Wireless and the like.
The site explains general Mac concepts to Windows users. In other words, unlike the way some postulate on accessibility teaching / forgetting what one knows previously, the above web site presents information in an intelligent manner. And trust me on this one: The least experienced of you all on here is a more efficient user than the average sighted person, because we blind people have to be.
OK the above site is down, and my sincere apologies I haven't used it in about five or six months and I should have checked before making a fake link to it sorry.
There is an article on WikiHow, and if you Google you will find others. Anyway whatever you do be intelligent and don't listen to anyone telling you to forget everything you learned before and blah blah blah ... learning / knowledge / intelligence is nothing if not cumulative.
If you have a refreshable Braille device like a PAC Mate or Braille Note, they publish the VoiceOver getting Started guide with exercises in brf, and by they I mean Apple or maybe it's the Lioncourt people. But with the latest OS, you can use OS key commands to do a lot, ctrl f2 to go to the menu, f3 to go to the dock, I think it is.
in some ways, you do need to restructure what you know from windows. typing for example and where the curssor is is not like windows, and can confuse people if they take it from the windows view.
OK, pardon my excitement, but I just got the email that my mac has shipped. I can't wait to start learning it.
To the last poster, nice.
To the one before that, it's true of anything. I just find the whole maccessibility claim of 'forget what you've learned' to be a. embicilic, and b. extremely unrealistic. Apple knows that's not gonna happen, and nobody tells that to Mac users coming to Windows. I've seen plenty of those in my time, when they actually have to go to work someplace, aka use enterprise software, aka use a PC. And ya know what? They all switch back and forth just fine.
You don't forget what you know about addition and subtraction in order to do multiplication and division, you just add to your existing knowledge.
Well, I got my macbook today. I played around with it a bit. It's different, and I'm sort of overwhelmed right now, but I'll get through it.
You'll probably like the touch screen / gestures with voiceOver, but you can of course use the keyboard. Looks like a rather nice hybrid solution.
Oh, HTC and others have already done that on the mobile platform ... lol
HUH? how did we go from macs to HTC?
Hmm I will put my 2 cents in this boaurd. Sense windows7 came out I am a hppy windows user. I like the mac but I am sorry window's screenreaders still lead the way. Ya I love jaws but not their method's of doing business. I play a mud game called marriani and I like using sounds with it as well I am not sure if you can do that on the mac.
Why couldn't you play Miriani on a mac? Surely they have mush clients and mud clients. The days of having to go without on the mac are largely over.
I too play Miriani, but that sure isn't going to keep me using a PC.
OK, question. How do I activate my Itunes account on my mac?
actually I was not sure if a mud client supported sounds for marriani. honetsly I am a fan of windows7, still use win xp on my netbook. I however do commend aaple for their screenreader.
You activate an iTunes account on a Mac about the same way you would do it with Windows. Just use the VoiceOver keyboard gestures and you'll do fine. You have to go to the iTunes store tab to activate it. There is a menu that will show up when you tab to it that has a place where you can activate your account. After that, everything's pretty straight forward. It's totally accessible.
Yeah, iI'm having trouble finding the Itunes store tab though. I think there might be a few keystrokes that I don't know. LOL
No, you just down arrow to the iTunes store. It's right after where it says radio. If you need anymore help with that stuff, you can pqn me if you want.
Hmmm, I did that. Maybe i'm just dumb, or better yet, maybe I'm trying too hard to cram too much in.:)
I caution against resorting to pm's for this stuff, because a little known fact to most users apparently: If you have a question about it, chances are so do 100 other people. Best to post q&a here publicly where a wealth of users may find it.
When you hit the iTunes store tab, just tab over to the menu that gives you the option to sign up. That menu is just before the actual links to the store come up. Of course you won't be able to tab through the links because the tab key on the Mac is not meant to do that. Just use the tab key to that menu I just told you about and you'll be on your way.
OK, that part has been activated. Now, how do I tell Itunes to download all my purchased music, or should it do that automatically?
Hmmm, I think I'll just get a mac mini for my next desktop computer. need to reformat and sell this one first to rake in some money before that happens though. I hope I can find someone who wil buy this desktop.
And, does the mac mini come with a keyboard and monitor, or do you need to buy those separately?
You can use a Windows keyboard on your Mac Mini, so yes, you'll have to get your keyboard and monitor separately. It shouldn't cost you that much. The Mac minis start at around $500.
And faithful, if you go to your account menu, which is just before the other menu that I told you about where you activate your iTunes account, you can download what you purchased. So again, it's right before the menu where you activate your account.
OK, I'm going to just give up on the Itunes. It's stupid! I'd recommend getting a Macbook pro because their more portable, and you do have to have a screen for voice over to work properly.
I've yet to see an activate my account or anything like it in Itunes! That is so weird!!!
If portabilities not an option, a mini is just fine. We have two minis and an MBP, and the minis work great. As for not working with out a Monitor connected, I've had mixed results on my newer mini with the ram maxed out, I've not had any problems using with out a connected Monitor, however my 3 year old Mini I do experience some issues without an LCD connected. I currently have the older one in our family room as an entertainment center streaming netflix and free online tv player, as well as dumping DVD's in to a connected 2tb harddrive.
Were I to get a Mac, it would be a Macbook or Macbook Pro because of the gestures.
Yep that part is really cool!
I wonder if Macbooks will ever have touch screen monitors.
Interesting thought.
I played with a mac laptop over the weekend and thought voiceover was pretty good. I like the face that even though you can put cd's and dvd's in it, it is slimmer than the pc laptops. I've used windows all the time I've been using computers, but I'd definitely give mac a go. One thing I like about mac is that it has voiceover built in so a new user wouldn't have to pay 3 or 400£ for the computer + 700 or so for a screen reader that actually works fairly well + 400 and something if they wanted the pro version of an office type package if they weren't working. I Can't be bothered to do the maths right now, but apparently some of the programs are cheaper for macs, although the mac itself is more expensive. It's probably like with a lot of other things, you get what you pay for. For the short time I played with my friend's mac, I think I like both, although it is hard on apple products to find how much battery level is left.
it's actually very easy to see the remaining charge, it's in the status menus and it will tell you percentage, or even time remaining if you have it configured that way like i do. plus, a lot of the programs for mac that i've come acrossed are free. the ones i use anyways. the one i did buy was 27 dollars, and that was a backup program.
Oh cool. I know the text editor thing on it is pretty good and my friend had some kind of spreadsheet and database programs on there. I like the web browser on there as well. Saying that though, I don't know many employers who use mac as their operating system for computers, mainly windows. I can't see why though, because mac is so reliable.
hey rat,
How do you set up incomming messages to be spoken when using adium with voice over?
I do have bootcamp with my mack and virtual machine also, but do windows programs work with voice over?
anyone know much about streaming on a mac? I'm not sure can it be done easily? I hate i-tunes. lol I don't know about winamp for mac working with vo though. thoughts?
when you use boot camp you're not using the mac OS at all. nothing related. as for setting up the mac to read incoming messages with adium i'd have to show you how to do it, it's rather complicated to explain.
It's not hard to do. Honestly, Itunes isn't hard to use with a mac. It's not hard to use with a PC either. Go into your adium preferences and there is a table there that is where all your notifications are located. From that point, it shouldn't be hard to do. Once I got to the table, I was fine. Sometimes though, it'll ask you to name something. For example, when I set adium to announce who was signing in, I had to rename something. If you have to do that, just call it speech. If you have trouble, just PM me or post it on this board, and I'll go through the adium preferences step by step.:) I seriously don't mind helping.
When you use bootcamp you have to use jaws or another screen reader. I'm not using bootcamp or a VM because I didn't want to complicate things much. I find the mac to be pretty accessible by itself unless you have programs that are only made for a PC.:) So far, I'm really enjoying my mac. I've not used Iworks yet which I want to learn next, but everything else has gone fine. I do have one question. I had some trouble with wireless connection in a hotel room. Does anyone have any suggestions of how to help with that? My mac was connected, but it didn't stay connected.